How to proceed with the lingerie–elevator question?

Question

The question What was offensive about the "ladies lingerie department" joke, and how can I avoid offending people in a similar way? has caused a lot of controversy in comments and answers, in particular with respect to whether it shall be open or closed. Since any discussion on this in the comments or chat will inevitably get very tedious due to other matters being discussed in parallel, we (read: some moderators) have decided to lock the question and take this issue here.

Be aware that there are already seventy deleted comments on this question and its answers, some of which were not nice.

This Question

In an answer please propose how we should proceed with this question:

• Should it stay closed?
• Should it be reopened as it is?
• Should it be changed in a specific manner and then reopened?

Please answer only with respect to this site. Migration would only happen if the target site wants it (which is unlikely) and thus not something we can decide.

Food for Thought

It would be great if you could address these questions in an answer:

• Does this question fit our scope?
• Is the question reasonably narrow?
• Is it reasonably clear what is being asked?
• Can it be avoided that this question turns into a popularity contest?

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Update: A new question has been posted, following from the discussion below Jake Beal's answer.

The new question has some discussion here.

Answer 1

Having just reviewed my supervisor's training on workplace harassment, I have strong opinions on this question. Short version: it can have a simple and definitive answer, and should be edited and re-opened

1. This is not really an Academia question, but a general question about professionalism in the workplace. As such, one might argue that it should be migrated to Workplace.SE.
2. At the same time, a lot of the questions and answers on this site boil down to "yes, academia is also a workplace, and professional behavior is required." I think this is important, because many people seem to hold beliefs that academia is otherwise.
3. As such, I believe the question can be answered quite simply and in much the same way that it would on Workplace.SE.

In my opinion, the core problem with the question is that it invites "explain this joke to me" answers. It should be edited to focus more clearly on the "How do I avoid workplace harassment?" question instead, and answers should be dealt with similarly.

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More concretely, I believe the answerable concern in the core of the question is:

I am worried because I don't understand precisely what was offensive, so I fear that I might do something similar.

I would consider the question to basically be suffering an X-Y problem because the asker has jumped to an attempted solution of "understand why this joke is offensive" rather than sticking with the problem of "I fear that I might do something similar."

Answer 2

I think that this is a good faith question which we should attempt to give a good faith answer to, and I like several of the answers which were given before it was closed. It could also go on workplace or IPS, but I do think academic norms are different enough that it would do well here.

There are a number of academics who don't see how what, from their point of view, seems like a light joke, can feel exclusive and unwecloming to others. Off the top of my head, I remember Should academic papers necessarily carry a sober tone? , Would students feel uncomfortable if I include in my lecture a quote which is somewhat sexually suggestive? and Is it appropriate for my professor to include gender offensive material that is unrelated to the class subject matter in the course notes? . I think the answers to those questions are helpful to academics who are proceeding in good faith but don't see the problem.

One of the things I love about most of the stackexchange network is that it is a place where you can ask very basic questions and get clearly written answers. Not every place should have to be like that (indeed, my primary SE site, mathoverflow, is very explicitly not!) but I think it is good that most of the SE network is.

As regards the question of whether this would be the same in any workplace: I don't think so. As an academic, I continually receive the message from my employers and my community that they are very concerned about gender representation and have put a lot of thought into issues of microaggressions. I hear the same thing from people I know who work in tech, but I don't hear it from doctors, lawyers, musicians or chefs. I think gender issues are more tense in this community, so I think an answer explaining the norms in this community would be helpful. Indeed, I suspect that math is different from political science, and it might be best if we got an answer from someone in the political science world.

Answer 3

The question should be open to receive answers, but with lots of structure.

First, I'll respond to the specific points raised by StrongBad.

1. "I cannot possibly see how a comment about women's lingerie can be construed as having anything to do with academia."

It wasn't the underwear that had to do with academia, it was the setting where the underwear remark occurred, that created the connection with academia, and the nature of the question "How can I avoid a faux pas of this type?".

2. "The question fails 3 of the 5 don't ask tests."

   (a) "Every answer is equally valid, as in, “What’s your favorite ______?”. Why I find X offensive is no more or less valid than why someone else finds it offensive (or not)."

I believe it's possible to provide a comprehensive answer which explains each of the levels on which the elevator remark was offensive. There are innumerable answers on this site that involve a list of points. Just because a question has a multi-part answer doesn't mean it isn't well posed.

2. (b) "There is no actual problem to be solved, as in, 'I’m curious if other people feel like I do.' This is essentially what is being asked."

Actually, OP starting out by saying, Such-and-so respected body found that the remark was offensive. He goes on to say, help me understand how it was offensive, and suggest how I can avoid being inadvertently offensive. So, OP isn't curious if others share the respected body's determination that the remark was offensive. In fact, he asked that people not get into a debate about that, and simply take the respected body's position as a given.

2. (c) "Your question is just a rant in disguise, as in, '______ sucks, am I right?'. I cannot help but think one of the motivations for asking the question is that the OP feels the sanctions (and negative press) were unfair."

I didn't take the question that way. It seemed to me that OP was asking how to avoid giving offense because he wanted to know. The question wasn't a rant in disguise because rants in disguise don't go past the complaining stage, or if they do, the constructive part is of less importance than the complaining part. (For hybrid posts, that combine rant + constructive part, there's an easy rescue -- edit out the rant part; and this leaves a well-posed question that can be left open.)

3. "Third, the question is rather broad and I believe requires an answer that covers the history of sexual harassment/discrimination and the 'Elevator Floor Announcement' trope. While it is possible that someone will provide a sufficiently broad answer, I think it is unlikely given the number of answers the question has already received."

I looked at your link for the trope; it appears to be tangential. Regarding the history of sexual harassment and gender discrimination, while that's a fascinating topic, the question can be answered without writing a historical treatise.

There are other questions on this site that someone might feel tempted to answer with an overblown answer. That doesn't mean the questions are badly posed.

5. "I think the answers are going to continue to be based on personal experience/views which are controversial and lead to extensive discussion in the comments."

In my opinion, a subjective answer based purely on personal experience wouldn't be a well-constructed answer.

(If you're still concerned about this, the moderators could create a ground rule for this question, that answers that consist of nothing but the OP's subjective experience will be removed.)

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One of the major challenges Academia SE faces has to do precisely with gender. Each question related to gender issues is a learning opportunity for individuals who participate here, and for the community as a whole.

I do appreciate the headaches this question creates for the moderators; but I have a lot of confidence in our moderators. I think they're up to the job of keeping things organized and civilized -- with the help of community members responsibly raising flags when needed.

One or more good answers to the question OP raised would add to the value of the site.

Answer 4

I think the question should stay/be closed for a number of reasons. First, I do not agree with the arguments that

I think it is wrong to assume that no part of this is specific to academic culture (if that's the case, that's part of the answer)

I cannot possibly see how a comment about women's lingerie can be construed as having anything to do with academia. While the comment was made at an academic conference, it would have been just as offensive at any other event (e,g., a trade show). In fact, none of the current answers provide any academic specific context.

Second, the question fails 3 of the 5 don't ask tests

every answer is equally valid: “What’s your favorite ______?”

Why I find X offensive is no more or less valid than why someone else finds it offensive (or not)

there is no actual problem to be solved: “I’m curious if other people feel like I do.”

This is essentially what is being asked

your question is just a rant in disguise: “______ sucks, am I right?”

I cannot help but think one of the motivations for asking the question is that the OP feels the sanctions (and negative press) were unfair.

Third, the question is rather broad and I believe requires an answer that covers the history of sexual harassment/discrimination and the "Elevator Floor Announcement" trope. While it is possible that someone will provide a sufficiently broad answer, I think it is unlikely given the number of answers the question has already received.

Finally, I think the question is reasonably clear in asking "in what way is X offensive". The problem is that the answer really depends on the person you ask. I can assure you there are a number of topics that my grandfather would not find offensive, that I find astonishingly out of place. I think the answers are going to continue to be based on personal experience/views which are controversial and lead to extensive discussion in the comments.

I do not think editing the question can address the fact that I do not see how a comment about women's lingerie can be construed as having anything to do with academia. I also do not see how anything short of a major rewrite would transform the question from a bad subjective to a good subjective. The broadness of the question is not a huge issue in my opinion and if everything else could be addressed through edits, I think could be ignored in reopening the question. It might be possible to address the personal experience/views issue by rephrasing the question as "Why might groups of individuals construe the comment as offensive?", but I am not sure that is the case and it does not address the boat programming and bad subjective nature of the question.

Answer 5

It makes no sense to open it.

• If you make it generic, and remove the actual quotation there is no question in the question. It would basically be asking "What are some offensive things you could say to women at a conference?"

• If we leave it open with the quotation intact, that means we're OK with people posting rude comments they hear at a conference and asking "Was this woman overreacting to this comment?" ... which really isn't the point of this site.

There are some questions about taking offense that would make sense here. For example, someone insisting on "Miss" over "Doctor" or "Professor," but we're not here to judge passing rude remarks an academic is subjected to.

I find it hard to believe the OP thought there was some specific academia-related reason the comment was in poor taste, and agree with StrongBad's opinion they disagreed with the negative press.

Answer 6

My 10 cents, it would be good to see it on the site, and open, if people are able to control their emotions and address it in a methodical and rational way. Particularly if commenting is monitored.

These types of topics can become highly charged quickly and this can circumvent constructive discussion and possible resolution of these issues.

Is it relevant, yes. It is interesting and elucidating what type of behaviour is acceptable in this type of situation and breaking it down into the basic parts of why something is not appropriate. Academic situations abide by strict codes of conduct, so exploring what breaches these is important.

Answer 7

Honestly I don't understand why

How can I avoid inadvertently offending my female peers and getting into trouble for it?

is open and

What was offensive about the "ladies lingerie department" joke, and how can I avoid offending people in a similar way?

Is closed.

They are both still basically asking the exact same question in a different way.

I think the original question was formatted in a much better way with more context.